Thanks, Ellen, for the mention of my Audio Autopsy of "Season Cycle"! And, thanks for helpfully and creatively filling in some gaps in my musical vacuum! I was in my "pop culture black hole" in '86, just finishing my return-to-college at 31 to effect a career change! It wasn't at the time, but I learned, some time later about Todd (whom I'd met a decade before) produced this XTC album.
In fact, one of my first youth night Bible studies with my newly-assigned church (I had just earned my B.A. with certification, as a Director of Christian Ed in a Lutheran church in southern L.A. county) was a look and listen to "Dear God," which of course, I noticed was produced by Todd!
By this time, my high school-age charges were well aware (and impressed.....for some reason!) of my '70s/early-'80s time in radio and the record biz, and were anxious to see, in essence, a deep dive into a topic (namely a rock song) that had some "real world" relevance from someone who'd had one foot in the rock world they loved, but could, now, "marry," the two seemingly divergent POVs!
Many's the time, in the 4 years I was at that church, I would tote a carload of those lads to Disneyland, Magic Mountain, Knott's Berry Farm, and wherever, and shove a cassette of Genesis, Jethro Tull, and many other classic rockers into the car's player, and they've now, all grown, married, and had kids who've, of course, heard those same sounds, as Dads have passed them on to their kiddos!!
As for Todd and Andy P., and Todd and The Dolls (to pick 2 I'm aware of)....Todd, if not a task-master, is a strong personality in the studio (as we've seen from your excellent series), and that can bring resentment, if not hatred, from strong-willed members of whichever acts with whom he's working. The same animus that The Dolls' Sylvain had in '73, seems similar to Andy P's over a decade later! Then, in the rear-view mirror of time (after sales figures have been published, and critics have weighed in), both have mellowed in their opinions of the experience!
The Dolls went from "My grandmother could do a better job!" to "He accurately captured our live sound" in the span of just a few years! Andy, as we've heard, back-pedaled from his earlier rancor! Ah, artists!😁
So you're the one responsible for all these L.A. rock dads! No wonder the movies and TV shows have rock and roll soundtracks!
Todd has a fun story about that in a video interview, his song being used in the new Sex and the City spinoff TV series without getting permission from him, and he only found out when people told him 'your music is on that show.' -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzr1_wB7-Es
Yep, your reading of the situation with many of his clients seems pretty right on. Todd has said that he liked to take projects where they needed help, and it seems he backed off if he was dealing with someone like Robbie Robertson or Patti Smith who knew what they wanted and didn't have a career at stake. The Dolls, XTC, Fanny, Badfinger, even Grand Funk were all having problems of some sort. And four of these (except Grand Funk) appear to have fought with him over creative control. He has said he liked to get in, do it quickly and efficiently, and wrap up, whereas artists can often tinker with things forever trying to get them perfect.
On the other hand, every single one of these troubled artists/bands was making no money from music -- literally -- due to bad contracts and bad management, and the only thing they had any control over was their artistic output and their reputation. So if Todd ruined that, or took them in a creative direction they didn't want to go, I can see how that would be an existential threat to them. Most musicians do not have another career to fall back on or a plan B. As you say, if Todd hadn't been so successful as a producer -- if he didn't have such great instincts -- his producing probably would have dried up. But his track record is actually quite extraordinary when you look at how many bands he turned around and got hits or critical praise for.
He admits he didn't have good people skills -- as you say, a task-master -- and as others say sarcastic and difficult, but he got repeat work with the Dolls, Badfinger, and Grand Funk, as well as others, so that says something. He also believes that he had undiagnosed ADHD, so that wouldn't help matters dealing with artists.
It sounds like you had a great time shepherding your charges toward a life of rock and roll connoisseurship. That is definitely a noble cause!
That was a great Todd vid interview! Thanks for passing along! I take it you've already read my "Into the Doll House with Todd Rundgren," the story of my showing the Dolls around a Houston mall in '73, and then meeting Todd 5 years later, knowing what Syl had told me about his production! It's easily searchable on my site.
That was a bit of a revelation Todd had about the Meat Loaf album! I could tell it was farcical and outlandish upon release, but it's funny to hear him describe it as a musical comedy aimed at lampooning Springsteen, in particular! So many artists take themselves way too seriously (looking at you, Bon Journey!), opening themselves up to just such well-deserved lampooning!
Yes, I have read that Dolls post, which was a lot of fun. I can just picture them traipsing around that mall and making heads turn!
I'm running across a lot of overlaps between Todd and the Boss. Todd knew Bruce's girlfriend, Lynn Goldsmith, who was co-manager of Grand Funk and got Todd to produce their American Band album. Todd then used the E Street Band on Bat Out of Hell. Bruce went out with Karen Darvin, followed by Todd who was with her for quite a while and had two kids with her. Plus Patti Smith co-wrote Because the Night with Bruce. So you have to wonder if Todd saw it as taking the mickey out of Bruce or if they were a wee bit competitive. But this article explains that Todd actually felt Bruce was damaging rock and roll by taking it backwards -- https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/todd-rundgrens-problem-with-bruce-springsteen-leather-jackets-and-motorcycles-and-that-sort-of-junk/
I have read an interview with Jim Steinman who said he did not intend nor see Bat out of Hell as lampooning Springsteen; it was based on Neverland for him, and looking back at his fear of growing up and being an adult and dealing with relationships. But if it got them a producer when no one else would take them, I'm sure Jim and Meat Loaf were happy to take it in the direction of a musical comedy and spoof. Jim worked with Todd on another album of his own after that, they seemed to really get on.
I hadn't really noticed a kinship between Todd's and Bruce's careers, but as you lay it out, and as active as both were in the '70s, it makes sense! I can see Todd's depiction of Bruce's artistic "angle," though, but can also see (and believe, as he was the architect of "Bat"), Steinman's POV.
As for Bruce and Todd being competitive, I don't see it...they traveled in wildly different musical circles, but I think (knowing more about his personality, now) I can imagine Todd getting occasionally envious (I won't say jealous) of Bruce's exploding popularity, and as they were in the "same biz," I can see him kinda wondering, "hey, how about me? Where are my sky-high hits and massive album sales?" Guess it comes with the territory!
Well, the lot of them are artistically and financially successful by anyone's standards, so at the end of the day they all done good, gave us some great music, and can be proud.
Please give me 10 minutes with Todd Rundgren. I know it wouldn't tank, it would only be bad day him bad day me or good day him good day me or anything in between. We'd have hay to hoe. No doubt.
I wish I could give you ten minutes with him! I wouldn't mind interviewing him myself. I've watched many interviews with him and he's always interesting, even when it's not about music, like this short video where he gives opinions on alien abductions and conspiracy theories -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysJgm1Qubu4&t=9s
Another cool song I didn’t know!
Thanks, Ellen, for the mention of my Audio Autopsy of "Season Cycle"! And, thanks for helpfully and creatively filling in some gaps in my musical vacuum! I was in my "pop culture black hole" in '86, just finishing my return-to-college at 31 to effect a career change! It wasn't at the time, but I learned, some time later about Todd (whom I'd met a decade before) produced this XTC album.
In fact, one of my first youth night Bible studies with my newly-assigned church (I had just earned my B.A. with certification, as a Director of Christian Ed in a Lutheran church in southern L.A. county) was a look and listen to "Dear God," which of course, I noticed was produced by Todd!
By this time, my high school-age charges were well aware (and impressed.....for some reason!) of my '70s/early-'80s time in radio and the record biz, and were anxious to see, in essence, a deep dive into a topic (namely a rock song) that had some "real world" relevance from someone who'd had one foot in the rock world they loved, but could, now, "marry," the two seemingly divergent POVs!
Many's the time, in the 4 years I was at that church, I would tote a carload of those lads to Disneyland, Magic Mountain, Knott's Berry Farm, and wherever, and shove a cassette of Genesis, Jethro Tull, and many other classic rockers into the car's player, and they've now, all grown, married, and had kids who've, of course, heard those same sounds, as Dads have passed them on to their kiddos!!
As for Todd and Andy P., and Todd and The Dolls (to pick 2 I'm aware of)....Todd, if not a task-master, is a strong personality in the studio (as we've seen from your excellent series), and that can bring resentment, if not hatred, from strong-willed members of whichever acts with whom he's working. The same animus that The Dolls' Sylvain had in '73, seems similar to Andy P's over a decade later! Then, in the rear-view mirror of time (after sales figures have been published, and critics have weighed in), both have mellowed in their opinions of the experience!
The Dolls went from "My grandmother could do a better job!" to "He accurately captured our live sound" in the span of just a few years! Andy, as we've heard, back-pedaled from his earlier rancor! Ah, artists!😁
So you're the one responsible for all these L.A. rock dads! No wonder the movies and TV shows have rock and roll soundtracks!
Todd has a fun story about that in a video interview, his song being used in the new Sex and the City spinoff TV series without getting permission from him, and he only found out when people told him 'your music is on that show.' -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzr1_wB7-Es
Yep, your reading of the situation with many of his clients seems pretty right on. Todd has said that he liked to take projects where they needed help, and it seems he backed off if he was dealing with someone like Robbie Robertson or Patti Smith who knew what they wanted and didn't have a career at stake. The Dolls, XTC, Fanny, Badfinger, even Grand Funk were all having problems of some sort. And four of these (except Grand Funk) appear to have fought with him over creative control. He has said he liked to get in, do it quickly and efficiently, and wrap up, whereas artists can often tinker with things forever trying to get them perfect.
On the other hand, every single one of these troubled artists/bands was making no money from music -- literally -- due to bad contracts and bad management, and the only thing they had any control over was their artistic output and their reputation. So if Todd ruined that, or took them in a creative direction they didn't want to go, I can see how that would be an existential threat to them. Most musicians do not have another career to fall back on or a plan B. As you say, if Todd hadn't been so successful as a producer -- if he didn't have such great instincts -- his producing probably would have dried up. But his track record is actually quite extraordinary when you look at how many bands he turned around and got hits or critical praise for.
He admits he didn't have good people skills -- as you say, a task-master -- and as others say sarcastic and difficult, but he got repeat work with the Dolls, Badfinger, and Grand Funk, as well as others, so that says something. He also believes that he had undiagnosed ADHD, so that wouldn't help matters dealing with artists.
It sounds like you had a great time shepherding your charges toward a life of rock and roll connoisseurship. That is definitely a noble cause!
That was a great Todd vid interview! Thanks for passing along! I take it you've already read my "Into the Doll House with Todd Rundgren," the story of my showing the Dolls around a Houston mall in '73, and then meeting Todd 5 years later, knowing what Syl had told me about his production! It's easily searchable on my site.
That was a bit of a revelation Todd had about the Meat Loaf album! I could tell it was farcical and outlandish upon release, but it's funny to hear him describe it as a musical comedy aimed at lampooning Springsteen, in particular! So many artists take themselves way too seriously (looking at you, Bon Journey!), opening themselves up to just such well-deserved lampooning!
Yes, I have read that Dolls post, which was a lot of fun. I can just picture them traipsing around that mall and making heads turn!
I'm running across a lot of overlaps between Todd and the Boss. Todd knew Bruce's girlfriend, Lynn Goldsmith, who was co-manager of Grand Funk and got Todd to produce their American Band album. Todd then used the E Street Band on Bat Out of Hell. Bruce went out with Karen Darvin, followed by Todd who was with her for quite a while and had two kids with her. Plus Patti Smith co-wrote Because the Night with Bruce. So you have to wonder if Todd saw it as taking the mickey out of Bruce or if they were a wee bit competitive. But this article explains that Todd actually felt Bruce was damaging rock and roll by taking it backwards -- https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/todd-rundgrens-problem-with-bruce-springsteen-leather-jackets-and-motorcycles-and-that-sort-of-junk/
I have read an interview with Jim Steinman who said he did not intend nor see Bat out of Hell as lampooning Springsteen; it was based on Neverland for him, and looking back at his fear of growing up and being an adult and dealing with relationships. But if it got them a producer when no one else would take them, I'm sure Jim and Meat Loaf were happy to take it in the direction of a musical comedy and spoof. Jim worked with Todd on another album of his own after that, they seemed to really get on.
I hadn't really noticed a kinship between Todd's and Bruce's careers, but as you lay it out, and as active as both were in the '70s, it makes sense! I can see Todd's depiction of Bruce's artistic "angle," though, but can also see (and believe, as he was the architect of "Bat"), Steinman's POV.
As for Bruce and Todd being competitive, I don't see it...they traveled in wildly different musical circles, but I think (knowing more about his personality, now) I can imagine Todd getting occasionally envious (I won't say jealous) of Bruce's exploding popularity, and as they were in the "same biz," I can see him kinda wondering, "hey, how about me? Where are my sky-high hits and massive album sales?" Guess it comes with the territory!
Well, the lot of them are artistically and financially successful by anyone's standards, so at the end of the day they all done good, gave us some great music, and can be proud.
Please give me 10 minutes with Todd Rundgren. I know it wouldn't tank, it would only be bad day him bad day me or good day him good day me or anything in between. We'd have hay to hoe. No doubt.
I wish I could give you ten minutes with him! I wouldn't mind interviewing him myself. I've watched many interviews with him and he's always interesting, even when it's not about music, like this short video where he gives opinions on alien abductions and conspiracy theories -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysJgm1Qubu4&t=9s
Todd's closer than you might think...which is hilarious given the music peeps we know on Substack.
He's one of the music peeps?! Don't make me guess.
Btw, did you know John Foarde? It seems he's passed away. We never know until someone disappears and wonder where they went.
No worries, and thanks for sharing. Do you want me to delete your comment?
Would love to read that Myers book but it's about $50 (I don't like reading on Kindle, where it's only $10). Looks really good.
Sure.