It's an important topic, which is why every time I think I'm done with it, something else pops up that I want to address, or someone (like you) writes a post that gets me thinking.
Great job. I've been looking forward to seeing your perspective on defining protest songs, and am glad to see that you took your time and provide a fairly thorough survey of the important questions.
(For reference, my much briefer attempt at a definition was here: https://rocknrollwithme.substack.com/p/the-want-of-a-nail-by-todd-rundgren/comment/80414550. I still think that's a decent attempt, and it would offer an answer to some of your questions (for example, the person protesting the name of the Redskins would count -- even if he's alone it is still an issue which is politically salient. By contrast I wouldn't, by default, call someone calling for Pluto to be a planet a political protester, because it isn't, by itself, a politically salient debate) but my definition fails to address some of your other questions, such as defining success).
One side note, which perhaps illustrates the difficulty of definitions. Personally I would call The Ballad of Ira Hayes a civil rights song rather than anti-war (though it touches both). I think the most powerful part of the song is the illustration of how veteran Ira Hayes can't find a role or escape the stereotypes of the (drunken) Indian.
Thanks, Nick. And good point about The Ballad of Ira Hayes and I'm sure some of the others. A lot of songs touch on multiple issues and it becomes a judgement call which category they belong in. In a true categorization scheme, songs could be put in multiple categories, but in a substack post that would just take up too much space and make it overly long. So I'm expecting people will have different interpretations of what a song is really about and prefer to categorize it differently. As long as it engenders thinking, great!
I think one of the points I was making is that, if you accept a wider definition, protest need not be political. It can even be a kids' song called 'Stop shoving that awful food in my face.' A more political definition of protest music is a narrower definition, and I'm not saying that that's wrong. I'm suggesting that it's one definitional approach and would eliminate songs that others might define as protest music (like a lot of punk songs). It leads to an interesting debate, perhaps, around 60s vs 80s forms of protest, for example.
Yes, I think that's a good point to highlight. I do have a strong inclination to say that a defining characteristic of protest songs is some element of political engagement, but I can easily understand why you would be concerned that is too narrow -- I think it provides some useful clarity, but it DOES narrow the scope, perhaps too much.
I think it's certainly possible to argue either of those positions.
Yep, I think we can just say here's where I'm going to stand, and based on that, here's what I would consider protest music.
I'm guessing that the time period when someone grew up and what music they were exposed to will color their view, at least to some extent. As someone who grew up in the 60s, if anything I've leaned over backwards to embrace all forms of protest to eliminate any 60s bias. But some may wish to argue that I've gone too far and embraced songs that shouldn't be considered forms of protest, like my category of personal protest songs. Which is fine, as I'm just encouraging people to think and figure out what protest music means to them.
Another great piece, Ellen. Like richard said, you raise really big questions that sitting in my car using voice to text feels to limited to respond via. i’m not sure you asked this question, but I think with the ubiquitous of streaming and the lack of any real radio presence, there are very few songs that will reach the sort of audience that songs from the 60s 70s 80s and even 90s reached. Which is why I think protest songs of the day tend to be songs from the past because they already have a built-in audience. That could of course be my limited view of new music, but I do put a lot of effort into staying in touch with new artists and bands, and I struggle to find protest songs written by people in their 20s and younger. I’m sure they are there. And it’s likely that with recent political times a lot more of them will be coming down the pike. apologies for spelling and grammar mistakes that my eyesight can’t pick up on a small device.
Good point, Steve, and I have to agree 100%. How does one get a protest song out to enough people to make any real difference? Where are the channels for doing so?
Although, interestingly, some believe Kendrick Lamar's "Not Like Us" to be a protest song against the sexual assault and pedophilia of a rival and other celebrities.
I also wonder whether there are protest songs on TikTok, a platform I don't frequent, and whether suppressing it is about squashing alternative voices (rather than the official line of Chinese data collection and spying).
You’ve put an extraordinary amount of thought into this. My own thought is that protest songs are the soundtrack for a particular point in time. I don’t think a song itself sparks change but rather comes from a cultural event or a seismic spasm in the culture itself.
As far as protest songs today there are some. The difference is there isn’t a unified dispenser of music now. In the 60s there was Top 40. That went along for some time. Then MTV shaped music somewhat in the 80s. There were social commentary vids. Today there are bands promoting all sorts of social change and anarchy but if you don’t listen to their particular type of music you wouldn’t know. Working with kids has given me a great insight into their thinking. Songs and bands we put up as influences are unknown to them. My daughter considers The Beatles to be Paul McCartney’s backup band as an illustration and the current group of kids only know Pink Floyd as a cool shirt they can buy at Hot Topic. As the world turns.
I'm not sure my reason for sharing this, except to say that I think we are still plumbing heroic stories from our musical past not for the kids but for ourselves. We are stunned and flummoxed by what is happening in the world, and turn to the past to give us perspective, hope, ideas, and resolve. Not surprisingly, it is older people stepping up to the plate with protest songs, like Kelly Newton-Wordsworth -- https://jamesroguski.substack.com/p/kelly-newton-wordsworth
And, of course, who's promoting her but an older dude on substack!
Thanks for the links. That was an interesting story about Gilmour and family. Regarding The Wall though, wasn’t Roger Waters responsible at that time for most of the lyrical output. I thought the fact he wasn’t particularly receptive to cooperation was one of the big reasons for their split and his leaving. Admittedly I’m not a Pink Floyd historian though.
The Kelly Newton Wordsworth YouTube songs were interesting. I had not heard of her.
Poor Ringo. He couldn’t get a break. George sleeps with his wife and Paul plays his drum parts. I guess it all had a happy ending though. He still happily does his All Stars while George and John are dead and Paul has been irrelevant for 40 years. I did the Wings Over America Tour and in my opinion that was the last time he made any relevant music. Anything I cared about anyway.
Yes, I think you're right that Roger Waters was the outspoken 'dissident' in the Pink Floyd gang as the lyricist for "Another Brick in the Wall," but David Gilmour did co-produce, sing, and play, so I'd consider him a partner in 'crime' in provoking the authorities. But I'm no Pink Floyd historian either, just stunned every time I watch that video, which is a masterpiece of protest storytelling in my view.
I tend not to write about the Beatles as people revere them. I've asked a couple of friends in the US and UK what they think about the Paul is a fake websites and claims and it's as if I've insulted one of their family members just by bringing it up. That said, it's certainly interesting to hear your take as someone who worked with two of them and know them as people.
When you spend time around people you begin to realize they’re not deities. Like actors being identified by their theatrical roles, musicians are often identified by their perceived cultural value. I was as much a Beatles fan as anyone. I am more of a what have I done lately person so while enjoying past reminiscing tend not to dwell on it. Does that make any sense?
Yes, absolutely makes sense. I worked with some 'giants' in my field and knew the inside scoop on their foibles, weaknesses, insecurities, failures as well as all the positive stuff. There are no gods walking the earth, maybe just some aliens if you're into all the ufo stuff.
Actually while I’m thinking about it, do you mind if I share your books with my coworkers. I have shared some of your Substacks and mentioned your books. They were interested in reading them. I said O didn’t think you would care but would ask first.
I've been planning to give them new titles and blurbs and then reissue them with an ad campaign, but haven't gotten my act together around that yet. The books themselves will not change, I'm not doing any rewriting, so it's fine to share them.
The first iteration of Ringo’s All Stars was playing in Phoenix where I was living at the time. I was asked to coordinate security for the event. Normally there would be a barricade in front of the stage but I didn’t anticipate any issues with the concertgoers so we didn’t set one up. Instead I put a folding chair on the floor at the center but below the stage and I sat there. I was right. No one left their seats to rush the stage. Then he announced he was going to sing “Photograph” which was his hit at that time. I noticed a lady getting up from her seat towards the back. She stumbled down the aisle and stood there. I motioned her over and told her she would need to return. She started crying, told me she was 33 that day and her boyfriend had left her. That was her favorite song in the world and could I just let her see Ringo sing it up close. He was singing by then but had noticed and came over just above where I was sitting. He held out his hand and I told her she could touch him. She did, then sat on my knee to watch him finish the song. When it was over she returned to her seat and I never saw her again. That’s the stuff I remember.
I've always liked Ringo, and I think people forget that he was a well-regarded musician before he joined the Beatles. He certainly has recruited wonderful fellow musicians to play with him in his All Stars.
What a lovely story. Music really can touch people, have great meaning for them, and help them through difficult times. How wonderful that you allowed her to stay down front and Ringo gave her his hand.
I was at my annual overlook on Independence Day, there were a dozen or so people there, some locals drinking and smoking pot (still illegal in PA) within the boundaries of Buchanon National Forest. When a DCNR ranger arrived, this would have been an automatic arrest.
It's my habit to take dogs and a six string and play for folks there, and when the ranger appeared I broke immediately into Waltzing Matilda. He stood and listened with everyone else then left the violators go with a warning.
Fast thinking on your part averting a situation! Some live acoustic music and a dog or two is a great combo to encourage folks to chill and not over-react.
I'm guessing a lot of folks see Waltzing Matilda as a kids' song in the US because we learn it in school. The kid connection may make it unthreatening and even calming despite the subject matter.
Yes, the melody lives in a lot of memories, even rising to the level of a nursery rhyme, although it seems the melody and title line are the hook, the rest being completely misinterpreted.
Perhaps installed in the curriculum as a symbol of patriotic allegiance with a friendly state, and later the target of historical erasure.
Yes, it sure does have a magical effect. It's actually a gorgeous melody, very memorable and emotionally moving.
We did learn the words in school but I don't think we had a clue what they meant, we just thought they were really funny and giggled and elbowed one another as we sang it. But then the song stays with you.
You're right, it is really curious that it was such a staple in elementary schools when we were growing up. Maybe it has subliminal messages!
I think it's absolutely subliminal. Great fanfare is allotted the song in Australia, and yet no political body will acknowledge its true origin, and I suspect it is viewed as subversive, since the ruling class knows full well its implications and its refusal to disappear among the Australian people.
Why it remains their unofficial (or only) National Anthem.
I don't think there should be any gatekeeping in the arts (I know you are not, but I preface my comment with some of the devil's advocate questions you raise).
Ultimately, what makes a good protest song is in the ear of the listener. If it makes just one person think critically about something, then it's successful. It doesn't matter if it is millions marching in the streets, a photo seen around the world (Napalm Girl), or one man holding his sign for seven years. Ultimately, the football team's name was changed.
And, on the note of Native Americans, I wrote this piece a while back about how I met Leonard Peltier's sister and daughter and the Native rock band XIT's political rock concept album, 'Plight of the Redman.' Given your thoughtful posts on protest music, I thought you might be interested.
Have to agree, if a song affects even one person, that's a job well done. It's not for us to expect a certain kind or level of impact.
Thanks for sharing the Leonard Peltier and XIT post. I understand he's finally being released to house arrest tomorrow, and his family must be overjoyed. It was great that you were able to hold the exhibition and publicize his plight.
It's certainly relevant to this series in thinking about the abuses of power and forms of resistance, and how to publicize a cause beyond the people and groups involved through song and otherwise. I visited two Indian reservations back in the 80s as part of my economic development work and saw the situation first-hand. I think for most people it's out of sight out of mind, but when you've seen it yourself, you cannot forget nor forgive what's been happening to the first nations. Publicity is a key way to keep it alive in the minds and hearts of the public and the people who can do something about it.
Yes, Biden commuted his sentence before he departed the White House. Leonard's health is quite poor, and I believe it was so he could be with his family in his final days, weeks, and months. A good day, for sure. However, it should have happened years/decades ago.
I consistently struggle with how the US can scold other countries about human rights, and yet we have our own issues with human rights. Peltier is the perfect example, as is the current administration's stance on trans rights. The hypocrisy is frustratingly sad.
Lots of questions here, Ellen. It's going to take a while to think through them, but worth doing.
It's an important topic, which is why every time I think I'm done with it, something else pops up that I want to address, or someone (like you) writes a post that gets me thinking.
Eventually I'll get to women in rock!
Great job. I've been looking forward to seeing your perspective on defining protest songs, and am glad to see that you took your time and provide a fairly thorough survey of the important questions.
(For reference, my much briefer attempt at a definition was here: https://rocknrollwithme.substack.com/p/the-want-of-a-nail-by-todd-rundgren/comment/80414550. I still think that's a decent attempt, and it would offer an answer to some of your questions (for example, the person protesting the name of the Redskins would count -- even if he's alone it is still an issue which is politically salient. By contrast I wouldn't, by default, call someone calling for Pluto to be a planet a political protester, because it isn't, by itself, a politically salient debate) but my definition fails to address some of your other questions, such as defining success).
One side note, which perhaps illustrates the difficulty of definitions. Personally I would call The Ballad of Ira Hayes a civil rights song rather than anti-war (though it touches both). I think the most powerful part of the song is the illustration of how veteran Ira Hayes can't find a role or escape the stereotypes of the (drunken) Indian.
Thanks, Nick. And good point about The Ballad of Ira Hayes and I'm sure some of the others. A lot of songs touch on multiple issues and it becomes a judgement call which category they belong in. In a true categorization scheme, songs could be put in multiple categories, but in a substack post that would just take up too much space and make it overly long. So I'm expecting people will have different interpretations of what a song is really about and prefer to categorize it differently. As long as it engenders thinking, great!
I think one of the points I was making is that, if you accept a wider definition, protest need not be political. It can even be a kids' song called 'Stop shoving that awful food in my face.' A more political definition of protest music is a narrower definition, and I'm not saying that that's wrong. I'm suggesting that it's one definitional approach and would eliminate songs that others might define as protest music (like a lot of punk songs). It leads to an interesting debate, perhaps, around 60s vs 80s forms of protest, for example.
Yes, I think that's a good point to highlight. I do have a strong inclination to say that a defining characteristic of protest songs is some element of political engagement, but I can easily understand why you would be concerned that is too narrow -- I think it provides some useful clarity, but it DOES narrow the scope, perhaps too much.
I think it's certainly possible to argue either of those positions.
Yep, I think we can just say here's where I'm going to stand, and based on that, here's what I would consider protest music.
I'm guessing that the time period when someone grew up and what music they were exposed to will color their view, at least to some extent. As someone who grew up in the 60s, if anything I've leaned over backwards to embrace all forms of protest to eliminate any 60s bias. But some may wish to argue that I've gone too far and embraced songs that shouldn't be considered forms of protest, like my category of personal protest songs. Which is fine, as I'm just encouraging people to think and figure out what protest music means to them.
Another great piece, Ellen. Like richard said, you raise really big questions that sitting in my car using voice to text feels to limited to respond via. i’m not sure you asked this question, but I think with the ubiquitous of streaming and the lack of any real radio presence, there are very few songs that will reach the sort of audience that songs from the 60s 70s 80s and even 90s reached. Which is why I think protest songs of the day tend to be songs from the past because they already have a built-in audience. That could of course be my limited view of new music, but I do put a lot of effort into staying in touch with new artists and bands, and I struggle to find protest songs written by people in their 20s and younger. I’m sure they are there. And it’s likely that with recent political times a lot more of them will be coming down the pike. apologies for spelling and grammar mistakes that my eyesight can’t pick up on a small device.
Good point, Steve, and I have to agree 100%. How does one get a protest song out to enough people to make any real difference? Where are the channels for doing so?
Although, interestingly, some believe Kendrick Lamar's "Not Like Us" to be a protest song against the sexual assault and pedophilia of a rival and other celebrities.
I also wonder whether there are protest songs on TikTok, a platform I don't frequent, and whether suppressing it is about squashing alternative voices (rather than the official line of Chinese data collection and spying).
You’ve put an extraordinary amount of thought into this. My own thought is that protest songs are the soundtrack for a particular point in time. I don’t think a song itself sparks change but rather comes from a cultural event or a seismic spasm in the culture itself.
As far as protest songs today there are some. The difference is there isn’t a unified dispenser of music now. In the 60s there was Top 40. That went along for some time. Then MTV shaped music somewhat in the 80s. There were social commentary vids. Today there are bands promoting all sorts of social change and anarchy but if you don’t listen to their particular type of music you wouldn’t know. Working with kids has given me a great insight into their thinking. Songs and bands we put up as influences are unknown to them. My daughter considers The Beatles to be Paul McCartney’s backup band as an illustration and the current group of kids only know Pink Floyd as a cool shirt they can buy at Hot Topic. As the world turns.
I think John, George, and maybe even Ringo might claim that Paul saw things that way!
But yes, tend to agree with the gist of what you're saying.
When I was living in London, I remember David Gilmour's son Charlie being charged with violent disorder during a protest against tuition fees and having to serve time in prison. All the kid did was get photographed swinging from a flag, so I think Gilmour has experienced whereof he sings in "Another Brick in the Wall" in his own life -- https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/aug/06/david-gilmour-ive-been-bonded-to-charlie-since-he-was-three-we-were-incensed-by-the-injustice.
I'm not sure my reason for sharing this, except to say that I think we are still plumbing heroic stories from our musical past not for the kids but for ourselves. We are stunned and flummoxed by what is happening in the world, and turn to the past to give us perspective, hope, ideas, and resolve. Not surprisingly, it is older people stepping up to the plate with protest songs, like Kelly Newton-Wordsworth -- https://jamesroguski.substack.com/p/kelly-newton-wordsworth
And, of course, who's promoting her but an older dude on substack!
Thanks for the links. That was an interesting story about Gilmour and family. Regarding The Wall though, wasn’t Roger Waters responsible at that time for most of the lyrical output. I thought the fact he wasn’t particularly receptive to cooperation was one of the big reasons for their split and his leaving. Admittedly I’m not a Pink Floyd historian though.
The Kelly Newton Wordsworth YouTube songs were interesting. I had not heard of her.
Poor Ringo. He couldn’t get a break. George sleeps with his wife and Paul plays his drum parts. I guess it all had a happy ending though. He still happily does his All Stars while George and John are dead and Paul has been irrelevant for 40 years. I did the Wings Over America Tour and in my opinion that was the last time he made any relevant music. Anything I cared about anyway.
Yes, I think you're right that Roger Waters was the outspoken 'dissident' in the Pink Floyd gang as the lyricist for "Another Brick in the Wall," but David Gilmour did co-produce, sing, and play, so I'd consider him a partner in 'crime' in provoking the authorities. But I'm no Pink Floyd historian either, just stunned every time I watch that video, which is a masterpiece of protest storytelling in my view.
I tend not to write about the Beatles as people revere them. I've asked a couple of friends in the US and UK what they think about the Paul is a fake websites and claims and it's as if I've insulted one of their family members just by bringing it up. That said, it's certainly interesting to hear your take as someone who worked with two of them and know them as people.
When you spend time around people you begin to realize they’re not deities. Like actors being identified by their theatrical roles, musicians are often identified by their perceived cultural value. I was as much a Beatles fan as anyone. I am more of a what have I done lately person so while enjoying past reminiscing tend not to dwell on it. Does that make any sense?
Yes, absolutely makes sense. I worked with some 'giants' in my field and knew the inside scoop on their foibles, weaknesses, insecurities, failures as well as all the positive stuff. There are no gods walking the earth, maybe just some aliens if you're into all the ufo stuff.
👽👾🛸
Actually while I’m thinking about it, do you mind if I share your books with my coworkers. I have shared some of your Substacks and mentioned your books. They were interested in reading them. I said O didn’t think you would care but would ask first.
No, don't mind at all. I'd be flattered.
I've been planning to give them new titles and blurbs and then reissue them with an ad campaign, but haven't gotten my act together around that yet. The books themselves will not change, I'm not doing any rewriting, so it's fine to share them.
👍
I’ll give you a security story here.
The first iteration of Ringo’s All Stars was playing in Phoenix where I was living at the time. I was asked to coordinate security for the event. Normally there would be a barricade in front of the stage but I didn’t anticipate any issues with the concertgoers so we didn’t set one up. Instead I put a folding chair on the floor at the center but below the stage and I sat there. I was right. No one left their seats to rush the stage. Then he announced he was going to sing “Photograph” which was his hit at that time. I noticed a lady getting up from her seat towards the back. She stumbled down the aisle and stood there. I motioned her over and told her she would need to return. She started crying, told me she was 33 that day and her boyfriend had left her. That was her favorite song in the world and could I just let her see Ringo sing it up close. He was singing by then but had noticed and came over just above where I was sitting. He held out his hand and I told her she could touch him. She did, then sat on my knee to watch him finish the song. When it was over she returned to her seat and I never saw her again. That’s the stuff I remember.
I've always liked Ringo, and I think people forget that he was a well-regarded musician before he joined the Beatles. He certainly has recruited wonderful fellow musicians to play with him in his All Stars.
What a lovely story. Music really can touch people, have great meaning for them, and help them through difficult times. How wonderful that you allowed her to stay down front and Ringo gave her his hand.
I was at my annual overlook on Independence Day, there were a dozen or so people there, some locals drinking and smoking pot (still illegal in PA) within the boundaries of Buchanon National Forest. When a DCNR ranger arrived, this would have been an automatic arrest.
It's my habit to take dogs and a six string and play for folks there, and when the ranger appeared I broke immediately into Waltzing Matilda. He stood and listened with everyone else then left the violators go with a warning.
A protest song is kinetic.
Fast thinking on your part averting a situation! Some live acoustic music and a dog or two is a great combo to encourage folks to chill and not over-react.
I'm guessing a lot of folks see Waltzing Matilda as a kids' song in the US because we learn it in school. The kid connection may make it unthreatening and even calming despite the subject matter.
Yes, the melody lives in a lot of memories, even rising to the level of a nursery rhyme, although it seems the melody and title line are the hook, the rest being completely misinterpreted.
Perhaps installed in the curriculum as a symbol of patriotic allegiance with a friendly state, and later the target of historical erasure.
Still, Waltzing Matilda has a magical effect.
Yes, it sure does have a magical effect. It's actually a gorgeous melody, very memorable and emotionally moving.
We did learn the words in school but I don't think we had a clue what they meant, we just thought they were really funny and giggled and elbowed one another as we sang it. But then the song stays with you.
You're right, it is really curious that it was such a staple in elementary schools when we were growing up. Maybe it has subliminal messages!
I think it's absolutely subliminal. Great fanfare is allotted the song in Australia, and yet no political body will acknowledge its true origin, and I suspect it is viewed as subversive, since the ruling class knows full well its implications and its refusal to disappear among the Australian people.
Why it remains their unofficial (or only) National Anthem.
Interesting. Didn't know that.
These protest songs refuse to dry up and die!
Here in America, there are still sons and daughters of those who fought in jungles and trenches with Aussies and there is a true kinship between us.
I could go on and on about this...
I don't think there should be any gatekeeping in the arts (I know you are not, but I preface my comment with some of the devil's advocate questions you raise).
Ultimately, what makes a good protest song is in the ear of the listener. If it makes just one person think critically about something, then it's successful. It doesn't matter if it is millions marching in the streets, a photo seen around the world (Napalm Girl), or one man holding his sign for seven years. Ultimately, the football team's name was changed.
And, on the note of Native Americans, I wrote this piece a while back about how I met Leonard Peltier's sister and daughter and the Native rock band XIT's political rock concept album, 'Plight of the Redman.' Given your thoughtful posts on protest music, I thought you might be interested.
https://michaelfell.substack.com/p/echoes-of-freedom?utm_source=publication-search
Have to agree, if a song affects even one person, that's a job well done. It's not for us to expect a certain kind or level of impact.
Thanks for sharing the Leonard Peltier and XIT post. I understand he's finally being released to house arrest tomorrow, and his family must be overjoyed. It was great that you were able to hold the exhibition and publicize his plight.
It's certainly relevant to this series in thinking about the abuses of power and forms of resistance, and how to publicize a cause beyond the people and groups involved through song and otherwise. I visited two Indian reservations back in the 80s as part of my economic development work and saw the situation first-hand. I think for most people it's out of sight out of mind, but when you've seen it yourself, you cannot forget nor forgive what's been happening to the first nations. Publicity is a key way to keep it alive in the minds and hearts of the public and the people who can do something about it.
Yes, Biden commuted his sentence before he departed the White House. Leonard's health is quite poor, and I believe it was so he could be with his family in his final days, weeks, and months. A good day, for sure. However, it should have happened years/decades ago.
I consistently struggle with how the US can scold other countries about human rights, and yet we have our own issues with human rights. Peltier is the perfect example, as is the current administration's stance on trans rights. The hypocrisy is frustratingly sad.